China Update 2024
JOY: Welcome to God’s Church On the Move, the podcast that takes you to where God is actively at work around the world. With me in the studio today are Ron and Charis. Welcome, guys.
RON/CHARIS: Hi, Joy. Hi.
JOY: So, Ron, you’ve been traveling, and you have an update for us from, I believe, China today.
RON: Yes, I was there a few weeks ago, and we had some friends join us. These were friends from China. I won’t tell you who they are. I can’t tell you who they are, even where we met.
JOY: Shrouded in mystery, I get it.
RON: Totally, totally, totally, totally. So it’s just a matter right now of me just relating to you, just some of the things that were said. I’m going to go right off my notes, Joy. In other words, I’m just going to do this as these individuals talked, and I’m just going to make comment on it as I’m going to read this to folks. So this is like they were right in the room with us. And just so everybody can get a picture in their mind. So what happens is they come in to a room with you, and you have a translator there, and you’re asking them questions, and you’re madly typing down notes, so that you get everything accurate. Yeah, and then we record them as well, if I missed something on the notes. So this is very, very exact as far as what is being said and everything of that nature. So here we go. The first thing it says is this, that when the 2018 law came in, this was the restrictions on religion and the propagation of religion, shall we say, by the Communist government on the churches. So that’s when they started to shut down mass gatherings, tighten up all the rules on anybody attending church, everything, it all started in 2018. And then it went through COVID when they backed off a little bit because of not having the police officers out there enforcing all the problem or the rules.
And therefore, now it’s come back in force. So this means that the government can do whatever they like. Communist Party is trying to limit the space of the church, trying to destroy the church and hunt the church. Anytime our small groups get together to praise, to have Bible training, Bible study, anything like that. If the police find out, they arrest us and give away all our stuff. So what this means is, the house little apartment is raided. They go in there and they probably not, well, maybe beat on the people, but more or less just intimidate them in some way. And then go through the house and take all the things that the police want, either to sell or to have in their houses, and they just take whatever. And therefore, it’s theft, but it’s official theft, and it’s police theft. So that’s the way they do it. If there are 15 people in a group together, that is normal. It can go up as much as 30. There’s a lack of Bibles everywhere. And when we were there, just off to the side, I asked them one night, so these leaders, I said, so how many do you really need? And he said, 40 million, one of the guys said, and the other one nodded.
JOY: 40 million.
RON: Yeah, and it’s that way sort of situation. The educated and the middle class officials, they know there is no hope in this country. And whenever we preach the Gospel, share the Bible, we tell them that the only hope for this country is through Jesus, and they believe it. In other words, even middle management within the government is saying there is no hope in communism. And the country is falling apart. That was the overall sort of impression that we got. And that’s a little newer for the officials to see that. Yeah. I guess what’s happening is the disillusionment with communism is coming up from the bottom of the country people who didn’t believe it. Now it’s rising up, and everybody all the way up to the top levels of the government are realizing there’s something wrong. It’s not working. And they even said that there’s great turmoil within the government as it is right now. How far that goes up, and they’re not losing power, but they’ve got some problems. Persecution is not stopping the growth, but actually it is pushing the believers into the church. And they’ve told me this numerous times over the last few years, and Karen, when you and I were there together, same sort of message that the intimidation factor is only pushing people towards Jesus, and the disillusionment with Communism. More are coming and asking to be church planters and pastors. In other words, they’re taking up the torch, you might say, of trying to be the catalyst, and the trainers, and the pastors, and the teachers. Whereas before there was a little lull in the action. When good times were there, there wasn’t that same desire, urgency, yes, all that sort of stuff. Now it is. And they’re taking up the torch, despite the fact that they know there’s going to be persecution. Exactly.
CHARIS: They know what the consequences are.
RON: Yeah. China is facing much difficulties, but please excuse my grammar, I’m not speaking this way, I’m reading notes off what the translator said. So there’s much difficulties with economy. A lot of people don’t see hope in their own future. Jesus is revealing himself to many young people. Everyone who accepts the Lord will be, the Lord will be tested by the Communist government. Now get that one again. Everyone who accepts the Lord will be tested by the Communist government. New believers, small groups, leaders, will lead the Bible training, new Christian classes, and this is what he said about the new Christian classes, this one leader, he says, We will meet four times a week after work for two years. That is their basic Christian new-believer class. It’s four times a week after we work, probably around five o’clock or whatever, till late at night, 11 o’clock, for two years. And they’re happy to do that? Well, it’s the rule. It’s probably, yes, they’re happy to do it at some level, but it’s also, no, you do this. And that’s why over here, I’m getting all this time, I get pushback from people. Basically saying, well, how do they train their new Christians over there? How do they do it? Well, much better than we do here. I don’t know of one church that’s got a new Christian class for two years, where people come in to work for four days. And every host church movement over there has got different rules or a pattern for training, but they all train deeply. Are many of your pastors in jail right now is my question. Yes, shorter times, few days to few months, recently, a little more freedom. Calling him up, this one leader, it’s now normal for them to call this leader up, the police, and asking where he is and what he is doing, two to three times a day. Oh, wow. So therefore, they’re on them all the time. Wouldn’t the leader just make up a story where he wouldn’t actually tell them the truth of where he is, but he’s just being intimidated. He wouldn’t lie and he wouldn’t tell them the truth. There’s something of quietness, sort of like, well, I’m here in the house. But it’s an act of intimidation.
“Yeah. You just don’t disclose everything and you let them guess, but they don’t lie about it. They just don’t come across with all the goods, and that’s all. They ignore the question sometimes. This brother became a Christian in 1983. He started the house church movement that he’s in. He used to read at the beginning, and I didn’t go any further. He says, I used to read 40 chapters a day when I was a new Christian. 30 days would read the whole Bible. So every month, they would go through, and they would do that. They’ve got 100 young people right now reading the Bible in six days in his little group. That’s just his little local group, all right? And they’ve got 100 young people doing that. So bottom line is these people are really convinced that first of all, you’ve got to study the Bible, and you’ve got to understand it, and you’ve got to know the doctrinal, theological base of the entire Word of God. So that’s why this church is strong.
JOY: They are anchored in scripture for sure.
RON: Oh, they are. Oh, they are. And they think through the scripture. It’s not a matter of sort of like you memorize this catechism, and that’s all you need to do. No, you think it through. You understand it, and you personalize it. And therefore, this is why it’s a deep church that can undergo persecution. This is my question. What do they see in the believers that makes them have hope that Jesus can change the situation and not the Communist Party changing it? And he says people are experiencing joy that is noticeable and attractive. That was his one-liner. Noticable and attractive. So there we go. The road ahead, this was his quote at the end. The road ahead is long and difficult. No rights or privileges. Many leave China to find a better life elsewhere. But he says we stay because his burden for China is too big. In very simple words, that’s everything right there. The burden for China is too great.
Now the other person that we met with that came in, he put it this way.The reality of the situation is that persecution is everywhere, and people don’t know how to handle it. And he was talking about not just Christians, but persecution of people in general. And they talk about living in the biggest prison in the world. The prison is 1.4 million prisoners, 1.4 billion prisoners in the entire country. But that, he says, that’s the reality. Persecution, intimidation, people don’t know how to handle it, and therefore people are falling apart. Everyone is under surveillance, in particular via rail or buses or something like that. These are the main means of transportation. Also by air, but he says, they don’t track us that much because they don’t think we can travel by air because we don’t have the money. Therefore, they sort of say, they’re probably gonna be traveling on the buses and the trains and things like that. One pastor, he says, in his operation, was invited in for T, T‑E-A, okay? That’s a code name or an alias for interrogation at the police station. In three year period, he was invited in 78 times for T.
JOY: Wow.
So you just do the math on this. It is very, very regular. If you don’t go, they will come and find you. So you can’t travel, you can’t gather with fellowship, you can’t strategize for church growth. They’re watching you all the time. They’re tagging your car. They are watching with spies outside. The neighbors are paid to watch your house or your apartment to track you wherever you’re doing. In your apartment, you would have microphones and sometimes they discover cameras. Working in small groups of 10 to 15 people, which increases incredibly and exponentially, he says, the workload on pastors. In other words, let’s talk about North America. If you have a church of 300, 500 people, well, you can gather the mob together on a Sunday. You can do everything en masse. You’re teaching en masse, and it’s a lot better. But if a pastor has to go around to every little house of 15 to 30 people all week long, because that’s his congregation. And the number, he says, of these congregations is growing, as he says here, exponentially. Now you’ve got pastors just running frantically around, trying to take care of the sheep.
And he says, this is really, really hard on these young pastors, et cetera. They’re wearing out all the time. A small group gathering, as he says, is limited to around 30 people. And the number of the police will start to focus on you if you get over that. One group of 30 elderly people recently, the police team cracked down on them and fined every person 10,000 renminbi, or that’s the equivalent of $1,500. Well, if they can pay, great. Otherwise, the interest is added to it, and eventually they freeze their bank accounts and they can’t use the transit. Wow. It’s really escalating. Oh, it is. Well, it’s getting more… They’re meticulous now in finding ways of limiting the freedoms. They’re refining their persecution. It’s quite amazing. So, therefore, we got… Let me just get back to my notes. Economic situation, real estate and banking sector is collapsing. Factories are closed and closing. Lots of church, lots of unemployment. Most believers don’t have jobs. And so, this affects the financial welfare of churches. People can’t gather, can’t give electronically, because that’s the way a lot of people are working now, even over there.Everything’s on their cell phone and bank accounts, but like we have here. They can’t do anything electronically without being tracked. Giving to churches is illegal. Giving to pastors is illegal. It’s called money laundering. Therefore, they are no longer putting pastors in jail and imprisoning them for sharing the gospel. Now they’re being charged with things like financial mis… Oh, what would that have been? Forget that. Financial misplacement of funds, embezzlement, money laundering, et cetera. That’s why they’re going to jail. People believe that they are criminals taking money from people to do bad stuff. This is what they want to do. They want to make the average person believe, this pastor went to jail because he’s a criminal, he’s taking money from people, and with that money, he’s doing bad stuff. So the… Yeah, that is actually smart on the Chinese Communist Party. Oh, these guys aren’t dumb. No, they’ve thought this through, and they know how to discredit people. So this is, you can call it fake news, you can call it lies, you can call it whatever you want.It’s a matter of slandering the pastor and the leadership of the country. A pastor recently, a pastor and his son and another pastor were arrested and given two years in prison. They were beaten every day. They were fed one bun, like a little bun, a day for their food. Their mental state has collapsed. New angle from the government create chaos inside and outside the church. So, last thing we’re just gonna end up with on this one right now, and it was this at the end. I said, how do you prepare and support pastors to be able to face this? In other words, do you build something into a pastor, et cetera? Practice the way of the cross. Look at the life of Jesus and the early church as their example. Also lead by example. The care for the pastor’s families, as soon as they know where the pastors are and what prison, et cetera, they are in, they will send someone to care for the family of the pastor that’s in jail. So therefore, they’re always in touch. They’re always caring for each other. They’re taking care of those that are suffering and their families.
They give them some money. When they are released, when the time comes and the brother or the sister will come out of jail, they will be given both emotional and physical care. In other words, they’ll nurse them back to health. This will show them that the experience that they have in prison is meant to glorify God and strengthen their ministries. So that I hope, that’s, I pulled out all the highlights from it because we went on for a long time, but those were the words that were shared with us as far as what the Church in China is like. Questions? Well, I don’t have any questions, but I just want to say to our listeners that Empower works with the Chinese national believers and we have donation opportunities to come along them and support them in many different ways. You can go to our website, rompiers.org to see all of those donation opportunities. Let me back up just before we close off your joy and say this too. There’s no point in yelling and screaming at the Chinese government to stop this. Okay, this is no point.
They’re going to do what they’re going to do. And therefore, many people over in the West say, well, why don’t we write letters to them and campaign against the Chinese government? No. And the brothers and sisters there, and all the top leaders that I meet with, say we know we’re going to go through this. This is nothing new for standing up for Jesus in China or in many other countries of the world, and even going back in history. It’s always been the same. So they say, if you can help us with what I just described there, of helping that pastor’s family when he’s in prison, maybe getting some extra money to that pastor to buy food in prison, which we do. It’s not much, but it’s a help. Giving them care when they come out, and support, which we do through our network, and also more than that, supplying them after the fact. And this means that they probably are gonna go in prison again. Give them the assurance that we will take care of your family, all right?
“And that, like myself, to a grandfather and a father that I am, that would mean more than anything else to make sure that Nancy, the kids, the grandkids are gonna be taken care of, no matter what the government throws at them, we’ll take care of them as the body of Christ. That is the real way you can support the church in China in the persecution stage. And remember, we don’t like using the word the persecuted church. What do we use? Persevering church. And that’s definitely part of this story right here. Okay. Well, thanks Ron. Again, listeners, you can go to romperest.org and we have so many opportunities to donate to the China Church and many other churches around the world.
